Really, all PC-ing aside (and I can PC with the best of ‘em), sometimes I just don’t want to get into a discussion about free speech with my kids. I just want to enjoy something without having to explain it later on when they repeat the lyrics to their grandmother.

Thanks, Jonathan!

Instead of talking about freedom versus security (which isn’t the right term but does make the discussion more ‘relevant’ by relating it to the war on terror and the Patriot act and all those things) I will talk about freedom versus conformity.

We in America value freedom - the freedom to do whatever you want and express yourself in whatever ways you desire and to express whatever ideas suit your fancy. Freedom is a fundamental tenet of our society and it should be because it makes a great place to live.

But all society functions to some degree on conformity, and conformity does explicitly limit freedom. If we agree that people shouldn’t have sex in public we are explicitly taking away the freedom to have sex in public. If we agree that people shouldn’t swear, we are explicitly taking away the freedom to swear.

So there must always be a trade-off between freedom and conformity. And when you say “hey, it’d be nice if people didn’t wear offensive shirts to public amusement parks” you are saying, in actuality, that you want to take away people’s freedom to wear certain shirts in public and people like Terisa react to that. Now I know you were really just saying it’d be nice if everyone thought a little about what they were doing and didn’t wear shirts like that to places that aren’t appropriate. But the upshot is the same, that you’re advocating a certain degree of conformity in place of freedom - and that advocacy isn’t okay to some people. Personally, I’d like to go to an amusment park where there weren’t any kids. Maybe the reasonable solution would be for some amusement parks to have “family-friendly time” and “adults only”.

But her point is that different people find different things offensive for different reasons and to shield some people from what they find offensive (but what others view as being fine) is to enforce conformity in place of freedom.

But the issue is “where do we strike that balance?”

And where Terisa strayed from her point is when she balked at your absurd analogy. Because her point is still valid - we as a society need to find the balance between freedom and conformity. One of the ways we do that is through law-making. Most people agree that having sex in public is rude, so we make a law against it. Most people agree that being nude in public is rude, so we make laws against that as well. But those laws DO restrict freedom. It’s just that most of us are fine with giving up those freedoms because we didn’t intend to exercise them in the first place. Others find it impossible to live in societies that are so restrictive.

But foul language, sexual discussion, anger, violence, and religion are all issues for which there are significant number of people on both sides. So it’s scary that parents, in the name of protecting their children, often lead the charge in restricting our expression of those things. And the fact is, parents will think they’re being totally reasonable when they ask everyone to cooperate and conform to their personal standards of decency.

The truth is, I have a hard time defending the shirt in your example, but I, like Terise, don’t want to go to an amusement park where, because some parents found it offensive, nobody can wear shirts with bad words on them, or shirts with political slogans, or clothes that reveal too much or…

And I certainly don’t want to live in a country where personal expression is limited by what some people find offensive.

And, worst of all, I don’t want to have these kinds of interesting discussions shouted down by people for whom disagreement is offensive.

I also really, really like “badass monkey fractal” and love the idea that you, JoCo, should make the child and work-safe versions of your songs use “monkey”. It’s so appropriate!

I’ll have to try it at work. “What the monkey is up with this monkey company! Why can’t one monkey person write some monkey documentation!?”

(Sorry for falling down on the job as most posty guy. I’ll try harder.)

As far as prepared cheese dishes, deep-fried camembert is a classic. Served in Germany, where deep-frying the fattiest foods available is a popular pastime, fried wheels of camembert are served with toast points and a fruit preserve, usually strawberry or cranberry (the latter being my favorite). I travel to my old hometown in Germany just to eat at my old favorite restaurant and gobble up plate after plate of this delicious fried cheese.

Also, the French Canadians make a tasty dish called poutine, which consists (in its most basic form) of french fries, a special kind of cheese curd that I only know as ’squeaky cheese’ because it squeaks when you chew it, and a tasty gravy that translates as “hot chicken sauce.” It is absolutely heavenly. Ashton is a popular fast food chain throughout Quebec province, and serves by far the most delicious poutine there is. If you want to try it at home, use either BK fries (or a good, crisp frozen fry - crispness is key), prepare one of those powdered turkey gravy mixes in the pouch (it’s the closest in flavor), and chunked mozzarella - the very soft fresh variety made with whole milk, NOT part-skim. You layer all these into a bowl and microwave for 30-45 seconds or until the cheese gets really soft and ever-so-slightly melted. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm… you can also add (cooked) ground beef or sausage.

There are variations called Italian poutine, gratinee varieties which use spaghetti sauce instead of gravy, and often have any combination of mushrooms, bell peppers, pepperoni, and Italian sausage layered in. They’re then topped with shredded mozzarella and baked til golden-bubbly (the gratinee part). These are very yummy too.

I think it’s cute.

Honestly. Harumph.

You might as well just write a brand new song from scratch, it will be just as relevant to the original.

I understand that that* can’t always be supported under the time pressure created by TAW.

(In the case of Code Monkey, I actually *do* like the backmasking - see the second comment in this thread for why.)

But in general, I’d prefer something with which I can sing along.

Marc (above) got me thinking: I think there *is* a place in the world for a kid-friendly version of First of May, along the lines of Marc’s lyrics. Not to protect kids from the lyrics, as such, but because the theme is simply inapplicable to them. However, a song that extolled the virtues (or just the fun) of playing outside, without being preachy about it, would be valuable. I think a kid-oriented ‘First of May’ could be that song.

*Ref: The Well of Lost Plots by Jasper Fforde.

Part of my love of his music is that it is just so damn good! And yes, my 4 year old LOVES his music as well. BUT…I don’t let my 4 year old listen to curse words (and no, I don’t really care if you agree with that or not.) So I love a PG version. At the same time I wouldn’t want sanitized versions only.

For instance, I think 1st of May ROCKS as is…at the same time my son LOVES the opening lines (talking birds, squirrels for friends). After that I shut it off and sing the rest for him as ‘outdoor playing starts today.’ So would I like an “outdoor playing” version? Absolutley. It’s a fantastic tune and I’d like to play it all for my son. Do I want the original scrubbed away? Hell no!! In fact I’d be greatly disappointed if it was!

First of May, First of May
Outdoor playin’ starts today
So grab your favorite friend
And let’s go outside and play

on the issue of censorship, I was once watching ‘the amazing race’, and a contestant said “asshole”. in the subtitles, they censored it as “ass****”. kinda funny.
and on the TV version of ‘the matrix,’ they changed the line “I give you the finger *finger*, and you give me my phone call” to
“I give you the flipper *flips-off off-screen*”
they cut out the context but left in the reference to the “bad word” (”the finger” is a bad word? I thought it was just a rude hand jesture)

also, I recently had some real parmesan.(not the stuff you get in a can)
it was amazing.
-just my $0.02

D’oh! Hmmm. I guess maybe that’s where he got it. Apparently I swear more than I think.

The point is, kids are impressionable and if my son says “God damn it” to grandma, someone is going to get his mouth washed out with soap. And it’s gonna be me.

So anyhoo, speaking as the polar opposite of a wild-eyed Christian radical, if my son was old enough to listen to some Coulton, I’d give him the censored version.

i’m pretty sure i was just ironic. i appreciate that.

In ‘First of May’, when you say “we fucked a man with a tan sharpei”, does that mean that the man you fucked was in possesion of a tan sharpei, or does it mean that you used the tan sharpei as an implement with which to fuck the man?

hrm…

Seeing as I’m one of the people who started all this, I’d like to throw in that yesterday I heard a song I really wanted my son to hear because it’s a fantastic song (Hide and Seek by Imogen Heap) and the the first line has the word “hell” in it. My son immediately said “I heard a bad word” and I replied “pretend you didn’t.”

I’m not a moron, but JCs songs are so damned singable and my kid sings all the time, and I *know* he’d be winging the “god-damned” around the school yard, or worse, my mom’s house.

He understands the concept of words you don’t say in public, especially if you’re in 2nd grade, but he sings songs without even thinking about it.

Anyway, as I previously mentioned, I only asked him if I could do it, and he offered to make a pg version. I never even mentioned the word crap, I use that one all the time around the house. And as the DJ said, he can now play these songs on the radio. Isn’t that what we all want? For JC to big huge so we can say that we knew him before anyone else did? Cause then maybe he’ll take us for rides in his stretch hummer.

Heh. I said hummer.

While in Phoenix I got addicted to Dubliner cheese. It’s an Irish cheese, obviously, and is kind of like parmasean with extra bite. With just a little bit of it, you can change raman noodles into something that actually tastes like food.

Not to offend any of their fans by suggesting their songs are anything but clever and insightful, but the Insane Clown Posse probably aren’t getting a lot of requests for kid-friendly versions of their tunes.

My only problem with the backmasking is that it makes it harder to sing along: “.. maybe manager wanna write dieglide log-in page himself …”

But, hey, I’m not complaining! Really!

Seriously, you gotta try fried cheese curds. With a cold Leinenkugel’s.

Jeremy: I think that’s probably from moving a slider controlling a digital synthesis parameter on a synthesizer. My old Yamaha could edit one parameter at a time while playing, and I could get the same kind of sound by doing so.

The last 15 seconds or so of “Mandelbrot Set” contain a strange series of successively rising tones … is there any mathematical significance to that? It sounds like it might be an aural representation of a series of Z(n+1) = Z(n)^2+c calculations — in which case, very clever :^)

By the way, my on topic comment:

The backmasking is definitely the way to go for any censored versions. It seamlessly integrates into the song and doesn’t draw too much attention to the censored parts.

I support having a “clean” version of the song for those that want it, why not? I’m a little confused about the reasoning behind “Code Monkey” needing one, I have to admit. I don’t think I know of many people who would find “god-dammed” offensive (even my very Christian friends) and crap also seems pretty harmless.

Mind you, when my little brother was 9 his favourite game was “Bullshit”, so maybe I just have crappy parents…:) In the end I think it’s a lot more important for kids to learn about how to behave appropriately, taking the feelings and opinions of those around them into account, than simply banning all “bad” words from the household in the hope that they won’t pick them up. Maybe then they’ll grow up into adults who are sensitive enough to not wear that “dick” shirt to Disneyland but still have enough of a sense of humour to enjoy it.

Anyway, I’m going to get back to listening to “Mandelbrot Set” with my dad and singing along extra loud to the line “badass fucking fractal”. It’s funny the things that will bring a maths-geek and his spawn together.

Thanks again!

OTOH, if they are “just sounds”, why are you listening? Those sounds must have some meaning.

Just teasing of course. Because of a filter block to pages labeled as “songs”, i have never been to the songs page. I can only download the thing a week. So mandlebrot set Ive never heard, along with quite a few other JC classics (or so im told as i havent heard them).

Personally, I think censorship is only wrong when it is mandated on the artist. When an artist freely chooses to offer an altered version of his own work in order to appeal to an audience that might not be of the correct mental experience to handle swear words, more power too it.

Remember folks, when he wrote this song, it probably didn’t go straight to the tape out of his head without any changes. Every change he makes is him censoring his content. Editing is simply censoring out the suck.

I agree that people who take offense to these words perpetuate their use. When they no longer offend anyone, I’m sure their use would go down. So why not just stop caring? Reacting to these words simply ensure that they will be in wider use than if you didn’t care at all… And yes, they are just sounds. It is ultimately up to the person who hears these sonic combinations whether to let it bother them or not. When they exit my mouth, they are mere sounds. When they enter your ears you are attaching a meaning (and maybe more importantly, a connotation) to them. “One badass fucking fractal.” To me: a series of words with a clear and concise meaning. To some people: crude and unacceptable language. As you can see, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. Finding things offensive is a choice.

I’ve got a few questions for you or anyone else who finds certain words offensive:

1) If someone “bleeps” out a word, but you still know exactly what the word is, the context that the word is being used in and can even imagine what the word might sound like in the sentence, has the person who censored the word done anything productive at all?

2) If someone is giving the finger on television and the broadcaster pixelates or blurs the finger, have they helped to curb the show’s ability to offend? You know what finger it is and what the person means by it so what is the difference? And ultimately, what is the point of blurring a finger? The offensive aspect of “the finger” is the meaning attached to it, not a graphic image…

I’ll also note that there is a categorical difference betwee a parent endorsing a behavior (in this case swearing by playing and enjoying a song laced with swear words) and being exposed to it at school. Simply because children will come into contact with swearing, among other behaviors, among peers does not mean parents should throw their arms up and swear along with them. Parenting has results, even in the world as it is.

That’s the greatest mental image I’ve had in a long time, thank you.

“Crushed nuts?”
“No, I’m just tired.”

(This was a joke. And I’m a Swiss cheese kinda guy.)

You’re orignal was inspired and if a few DRAH-WOLB S’SELOHSSA can’t handle your brilliance just tell them to KCUF themselves.

Back on the other subject, it’s kind of creepy that I turned on the tv tonight and I’m greeted by an episode of Good Eats all about cheese. A sign? Perhaps.

When the fighting starts, I am usually one of the guys who tries to moderate the thing. If you think about it, we are all here for one reason: We enjoy the music that Jonathan Coulton creates. Let’s enjoy these songs and maybe have a few interesting discussions along the way.

I am not trying to say that you shouldn’t be able to censor your songs. Hell, they are YOUR songs. Do with them as you wish (I’m just thankful that you did record them because I thoroughly enjoy them… And if anyone else
makes their own censored versions to “protect” their kids then great. All power to them. My only intention was to get people to consider that words alone (no matter how vulgar and inappropriate society thinks they are) will not ruin their kids. I am fairly sure that you knew exactly what I meant from my first post, I’m just clarifying to be absolutely certain (you can’t express tone through words over the internet, so sometimes things can get lost in translation)…

I agree, swearing can be necessary in some songs to keep the sense of realism in the characters portrayed. I just hate watching some movie where something extremely tragic or emotionally devastating happens and a character is saying words like “darn”. Suspension of disbelief collapses right then and there and you are reminded that it is only a movie.

Terisa,
[I am sickened that the single thing that everyone seems to feel the need to “protect” children from most is references to sex of any kind. So it’s better to let kids say “George Bush is a dick!” with the anger & venom & hatred which that expresses, than to talk about the fact that on the first of May people who love each other go outdoors and fuck to celebrate nature and rebirth?]

I agree. First of May would be okay in my opinion if it was properly explained to children. The line in Mandelbrot requires no explanations to go with the song however. I guess that is the difference, because the “fuck” in one song is describing an action, whereas the other one is just a word to color a sentence.

Matt Mobley,

I am having fun. I enjoy debating more than just about anything because it seems debates are usually healthy for all of the people involved. It helps people grow into more well-rounded individuals by hearing other people’s perspectives on an issue that they have already formulated their own opinion on. Once again I would like to reiterate that I am not telling people not to censor the songs. It does not affect me in any way. I merely wanted to share my own personal opinion on the subject. Please, enjoy the discussion for what it’s worth and don’t get too bent out of shape about it.

Sometimes I fear that people define “tolerance” as “everyone should tolerate whatever I want to do, but I don’t have to tolerate anyone else’s points of view”. All I’m saying is that being aware that your actions, your lyrics — even your t-shirt slogans — have an effect on others isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of respect. Maybe if I’m going to Disneyland, I’ll keep the dick-sucking shirt in my suitcase that day out of courtesy to others and save it for a more appropriate occasion. You know, like a wedding.

As for cheese, my vote is for cheddar. Bourgeois, I know…but danged tasty!